The Complete Works of Plato

“And take care that you do not tell me that it is the ‘due,’ nor the ‘beneficial,’ nor the ‘advantageous,’ nor the ‘gainful,’ nor the ‘profitable’; but speak clearly and precisely whatever you may say, for I will not accept it if you utter such drivel.” And I, hearing this, was struck with fear, and looking at him, I was terrified; and I believe that if I had not looked at him before he looked at me, I would have been struck dumb. But now, when he began to grow savage at the argument, I had looked at him first, so that I was able to answer him, and I said, trembling: “O Thrasymachus, do not be harsh with us; for if we are making a mistake in our examination of these arguments, I and he, know well that we err involuntarily. For do not suppose that if we were searching for gold, we would ever voluntarily concede to one another in the search and destroy our finding of it; so, when we are searching for justice—a thing more precious than much gold—that we would then so foolishly yield to one another, and not exert every effort to make it appear as much as possible. Believe this of us, my friend; but I think we are unable. It is more likely, then, that we should be pitied by you clever men, rather than be treated harshly.” And he, hearing this, laughed mockingly with a very sardonic laugh, and said: “O Heracles,” he said, “this is that accustomed irony of Socrates; and I knew this, and I foretold it to these men: that you would not be willing to answer, but would feign ignorance and do anything rather than answer, if anyone asks you anything.” “You are wise, O Thrasymachus,” I said; “and you knew well that if you ask anyone how many twelve are, and in asking, you preface it by saying: ‘Take care, man, that you do not tell me that twelve is twice six; nor three times four; nor six times two; nor four times three; for I will not accept it from you if you prattle such things’—it is clear to you, I think, that no one would answer a person inquiring in such a way. But if he were to say, ‘O Thrasymachus, how do you mean? Am I not to answer any of those things you forbade? Shall I, O wonderful man, not even if it happens to be one of these? But must I say something other than the truth? Or how do you mean? Or what shall I say to you in response to this?’ What then?” “Very well,” he said, “as if this were similar to that!” “Nothing prevents it,” I said; “but even if it is not similar, yet it appears so to the one questioned, do you think he will any the less answer what appears to him, whether we forbid it or not?” “Are you, then,” he said, “going to do this? Will you answer with one of those things which I have forbidden?” “I would not be surprised,” I said, “if, upon reflection, it should seem so to me.” “What then,” he said, “if I show you another answer regarding justice better than all these? What do you deserve to suffer?” “What else,” I said, “than what is appropriate for one who does not know? And it is appropriate, I suppose, to learn from the one who does know. And so, I deserve to suffer this.” “You are amusing,” he said; “but in addition to learning, pay a fee.” “I will, as soon as I have some,” I said. “But it is here,” said Glaucon. “But for the sake of the money, O Thrasymachus, speak, for we will all contribute for Socrates.” “Certainly, I suppose,” he said, “so that Socrates may accomplish his accustomed task: that he himself does not answer, but takes the argument from another who answers and refutes it.” “For how could one answer, O best of men,” I said, “first, if he does not know and does not claim to know; and then, even if he does have some opinion about these matters, he is forbidden by a man of no small stature from saying any of the things he thinks? But it is more likely that you should speak; for you claim to know and to be able to tell. So do not do otherwise; but oblige me by answering, and do not begrudge teaching both this Glaucon and the others.” When I had said this, both Glaucon and the others begged him not to do otherwise; and Thrasymachus was clearly desirous of speaking, so that he might gain a good reputation, believing he had a very fine answer; though he pretended to contend that I should be the one to answer. Finally, he consented. “And then,” he said, “this is that wisdom of Socrates: that he himself is unwilling to teach, but goes around learning from others and does not even render thanks for this.” “That I learn from others, O Thrasymachus,” I said, “you spoke truly; but that you say I do not pay thanks, you lie; for I pay as much as I am able. I am able only to praise; for I have no money; and how eagerly I do this, if anyone seems to me to speak well, you shall know well.”